Beginning of discussion
Zdraveite, Tova e angliiskata versiq na bulgarskiq tekst otnosno Uchitelq Beinsa Duno. Ako obichate pridyrgaite se w redakciqta i dopylneniqta kum neq i se otnasqite s uvagenie i dobronamerenost. Nie pritegavame tochniq prevod na bg versiqta na tekst na angliiski ezik i v nai-skoro vreme toi shte bude publikuvan. Tova oznachava che angliiskiq tekst shte bude osnovno obogaten v nai-skoro vreme. Vsichki nedobronamereni ili nekorketni redakcii shte budat prechistvani i likvidirani. Tezi stranici striktno se nabludava ot bratskiq suvet na Obshtestvo Bqlo Bratstvo, Bulgaria i nqma da se dopusnat zlonamereni ili neobsugdani v bratski kolektiv na suveta dejstviq, koito celqt da distruktirat bratskata rabota po nauchnoto i istoricheski-avtentichnoto predstavqne na Slovoto na Uchitelq Beinsa Duno. Blagodarq za razbiraneto i uvagenieto! Bez strah v Lubovta bezgranichna! Obshtestvo Bqlo Bratstvo, BulgariaRedakciq na bazova informaciq otnosno linkovete
Promenite, koito sa napraveni ot Dave0 sa iztriti, zashtoto predstvlqvat spam ataka sreshtu oficialnata versiq na teksta, koqto e podurgana ot Obshtestvo Bqlo Bratstvo, Bulgaria. VAGNO: Vsqka promqna v teksta predstavqsht Uchitelia Beinsa Duno trqbva da byde predvaritelno obsugdana kakto tuk na tazi stranica za diskusii, taka i s bratskia suvet na Obshtestvo Bqlo Bratstvo, Bulgaria. Ako se pravqt promeni bez tova obsugdane te shte budat smqtani za SPAMATAKA i shte budat likvidirani. Otnovo napomnqme da se otnsqte kum tezi tekstove s nugnoto uvagenie i internet kultura. Wikipedia ima striktni pravila za rabota i redakcia, ako obichate spazvaite gi. Bez strah v Lubovta bezgranichna! Obshtestvo Bqlo Bratstvo, Bulgaria ---krai na belegkata: 26.01.2006 --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.44.101.70 (talk .contribs) 16:24, 26 January 2006.Reply to the note 26 January 2006
Hello, a few points in response to the note from 26 January.2006: (1) This is an English version of the Wikipedia, please write in English. One advantage of this is that the trace could be easily reviewed when it comes to a dispute resolution. To understand the issues of ethics in Wikipedia, please visit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines (2) The claim below that this site has been maintained by the entity called below "Obshtestvo Byalo Bratstvo" and is a mirror site for the Bulgarian article is simply not true. This can be easily checked by tracing the version history of the article and also reading the Bulgarian Wikipedia site as of this moment. (3) In Wikipedia nobody has the exclusive right to authorize or approve what goes into an article. The mechanism of (self) regulation is very simple - a peer review. If you have an issue - please raise it. Claiming that you are The Keeper of the truth is not a good enough argument. Wikipedia is not an extension of your web page. (4) The only change done by Dave0 is adding a *relevant* link - valid, and 100% relevant. This can be easily verified by checking the version history of the article and the link. If you would like to add your own link, please do so - as long as it is relevant. Your link might also be a called "SPAM ATTACK" against the link posted by Dave0, with the same success. What you did is deleting a relevant link and putting your own instead for the purpose of self-promotion. Not only this, but you also added two links pointing to the same web page in the article for Paneurhythmy, which were the same but disguised. Speaking about "Otnovo napomnqme da se otnsqte kum tezi tekstove s nugnoto uvagenie i internet kultura" [transl: Again we remind you to deal with these texts with the appropriate respect and internet culture] is like the thief crying "Catch the thief!". (5) For the benefit of all interested, I am translating below from Bulgarian the posted note. For the next translation I will have to charge you. For obvious reasons I did not translate the formula at the end of your note (about love!) - in the current context I find it quite hypocritical to use it. (6) The only thing left is to appeal to you to follow the guidelines you yourself ask the others to follow (whether you will do the same with the Teaching you claim to follow, is your private matter). In the meanwhile, please don't try to alter your initial note from 26 January 2006, as it is captured in the version history. (7) Your claim to have exclusive right to maintain and edit this page contradicts the policy of Wikipedia. It also breaks the copyright policies for Wikipedia articles. Please take into consideration that by this note I am taking the first step required by the process of dispute resolution "talk to the other parties involved". I quite well understand, that in cases like this, your claim on exclusive right on this article will not cease, that is why I am taking the next step at the same time - I will be requesting an advocate. Stay tuned on this. - quartzTranslation of the original note from 26 January 2006
Hello, This is the English version of the Bulgarian text regarding the Master Beinsa Douno. Be so kind when you edit and add to this article to follow the original Bulgarian text and pay the due respect and goodwill. We have the exact translation of this article in English and it will be published soon. It means that the English text will be enriched very soon. All edits not done in goodwill or which are incorrect will be cleaned and liquidated. This page is under the strict supervision of the Brotherly Council of the Society White Brotherhood, Bulgaria and it will not allow ill meant actions and actions which are not discussed in the Brotherly Council, which aim to destroy the brotherly work on the scientific and historically-authentic representation of the Word of the Master. Thank you for the understanding and the respect. Without fear in the Endless Love! Society White Brotherhood, Bulgaria o Edition of base information about the links The changes done by Dave0 are deleted, because they are a spam attack against the official version of the text, which is maintained by the Society White Brotherhood, Bulgaria. IMPORTANT: Any change in the text presenting the Master Beinsa Douno has to be discussed beforehand here on this page, as well as in the Brotherly Council of the Society White Brotherhood, Bulgaria. If changes are done without this discussion, they will be considered SPAM ATTACK and will be liquidated. We remind everybody again to deal with this texts with the due respect and Internet culture. Wikipedia has strict rules for work and edits, be so kind to follow them. Without fear in the Endless Love! Society White Brotherhood, Bulgaria ---end of the note: 26 Jan 2006 --The preceding unsigned comment was added by Quartz (talk . contribs) 09:12, 27 January 2006.External link discussion
Dear Quartz, Thank you for help - translating of the first text is manifestation of good will. But your comment about transforming of the links is not correct. Do you know any information for the History and Tradition of the Brotherhood life created from Master Beinsa Douno? We (people, that work in commission for public relations and clear internet information in Brotherhood) wish only to show historically-authentic and clear from any misunderstanding point of view for Live and Word of Master Beinsa Douno. This clear point of view should be clear and to Wikipedia guidelines too. We understand this very well. And that's why when anybody edits some text in Wikipedia in any topic, he/she should debate this edition in discussion page. Dave0's editing is not discussed normally on this page, and above all his site has incorrect and incorrect information. This site simply destroyed and demolished the Word of Master Beinsa Douno with its suspicion that the Word is not published correctly. This is not true, because a half of it is published with the coordination and direct guidance of Master Beinsa Douno to his nearest disciples. This is the reason to say that Dave0 does not know and understand the history of Brotherhood organization and the work of Master Beinsa Douno. We hope and pray for Dave0. Let's Divine Light of Christ clear his mind. There is not any suspicion in the Word of Master in the Way of Disciple. And because we wish to show clear point of view we start discussion for publishing of these links: [links deleted] These links are not edited from the commission for information in Brotherhood. We ask Dave0 and Quartz, why the false information and suspicion in the Word of Master Beinsa Douno is not refered there? Simply because this information is not true, and people like Dave0, under the mask of good wishes, demolish the purity of the Word of Master. The brotherhood official site will publish in Internet all original lectures and talks of Master Beinsa Douno in the near future. These publishing will be created on the base of scanned from original books information, because we wish maximal authenticity and clearness. In addition, now we (approximately 40 people from many countries) work for translating of 4000 talks and lectures of the Master in English, Russian, Spanish, German and French. Why these, brothers and sisters of Christ, do not doubt in the Word of Master? Thank you for your understanding and patience. With no fear in the Endless Love! Commission for the information and public relations in Society White Brotherhood, Bulgaria --The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.240.249.13 (talk . contribs) 16:57, 27 January 2006.
Dear Commission for the information and public relation,
Unfortunately, as most of the Commissions for Public relations do, you failed to address concretely
most of the issues I have raised on your note. I will try to re-iterate them in plain words:
* You try to hide that the dispute is about a simple fact - you want to purge a link that you
do not like from this article.
* You falsely claimed (some people call this a lie) that this article has been maintained by
you - You preferred to skip this question.
* You falsely claimed that Dave0 has organised a Spam attack on the official version of the
text - You did not comment on the fact that Dave0 has just added a link to a relevant site and you
did not deny the fact that you misled the public claiming that you maintain the article.
* You do not retract your intention to claim exclusive right on this article solely based on
the assertion that you "by birth" are the authority on the teaching of Peter Deunov.
As to the substance of your claims about the linked site, have you contacted the site directly
(here it is: http://www.beinsda-douno.net) to clarify your issues?
The only thing I can add from myself is that the site in question does not say the Word of the
Master is not published correctly (as again you falsely claim). It says that many lectures (even
during his lifetime) have been edited - do I hear you saying this is not true? It further says that
many (but not all) current publications are edited - isn't this true, and that the publishing house
Janua'98 has published more than 75 volumes of unedited lectures and they are even accessible on the
net - do you say this is not true? I guess your real problem is that the lectures are published by
somebody else - otherwise why can't I see on your "official" site what new books are published with
the help of Vergiliy Krastev in Janua'98? Are you an "official" site just for some, but not for
others? Is it possible that your publishing house touches the lectures here and there? Is it
possible that you associate yourselves with sites and publishers that publish lectures the Master
did not quite want to keep in his room? Seeing how you juggle with the Truth in this discussion, I
do not expect many answers.
Your opinion has been heard and dismissed because you continue hiding your (otherwise very obvious)
real intentions - of course, I am putting back the link you deleted. I like the site placed by
Dave0, and I've checked it - there is nothing false there, so I can't see your problems with it. I
am not going to waste my time anymore on fruitless discussion but will proceed further with the
dispute resolution. You will have to learn to live with others. Quartz 11:36, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
About the link and the site
We wish to explain that the link to this site should not be tolerate hear on the article for the Master Beinsa Douno, not only because the information of the site is false, but because the sentence: "The English Master Peter Deunov (Beinsa Douno) Home Page" is said not in normal way. THERE IS NO any English Master Peter Deunov.... I understand that Christophorus (webmaster of the site) wish to explain that his page is the english home page of the Word of Master Beinsa Douno, but the style and English language is not good. We try to make connection with this webmaster, but there was no response. Let's this webmaster clear language on his site and after that published it anywhere. AND AGAIN: If anybody wish to edit or add any information to the article, FIRST of ALL he should discussed here on this page. There is no response from Dave0-Christophorus here again. That's why we simple understand the unclear POV of them. Very soon we will publish the translation of original Bulgarian page to English and German language. We say this because we wish to work clear to the rules of Wikipedia. We published part of normal and good links now. With no fear in the Endless Love! Commission for the information and public relations in Society White Brotherhood, Bulgaria 28.01.2006
Guys, please tell me this was a joke! Make up a story - by now I know you can - like "a drunken student went to an Internet club next to the Sofia University, Bulgaria, decided to make a joke, and posted from the name of our Commission an unauthorized message. He has been detained for 24 hours etc" Are you really representing anybody? What a depth of linguistic analysis and argument! I am putting the link back as you are not able to quote an untrue sentence from the linked page. But you are a good Commission - no answers given - anyway, pass to your friends they can update the page, but the link has to be added; meanwhile I'll do it for the current page.Quartz 10:18, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
We published full and addapted for english reader translation of original Bulgarian text of the article. We do not agree with removing of Peter Deunov, The Master Peter Deunov, and Beinsa Douno because this is basic cay-words to the topic. Most of the people and folowers know the key-words Beinsa Douno', Master Beinsa Douno (These names have deep meaning), and the name in the world and in the books and Internet is Peter Deunov, The Master Peter Deunov. That's why we do not agree with removing. We hope the editors of this article will find the decision of the problems with style. We do not agree adding of the link beinsa-douno.net, because we have copywrites on the name, and because Universal White Brotherhood - Bulgaria, like official organisation have copywrites to the books of the Master Peter Deunov. The Brotherhood in Bulgaria bougth the writes from the family of Peter Deunov and these writes work around 10 yet. BUT we use these copywrites only for coordinating of quality and good publishing of the books of Master with standarts of THE HIGH IDEAL. We wish to cooperate around HIGH IDEAL OF MASTER BEINSA DOUNO WORK and NOT!!! to limit or demolish the work of our brothers that work for the Word of Master and Salvation of the Humankind. We do not have problems with "Janua-98" PH and beinsadouno.info. We wish to work together with REAL brothers in Christ and in virtue of Christ. And that's why now we work for publishing of new e-books with whole phototipic information for any book (included this info from "Janua-98" PH). After this we will publish the original photoptipic books in Internet for free use. But crude and false tone of webmaster of beinsa-douno.net and Quartz will be not tolerate. WE FIRST WISH ?UTHENTIC AND GOOD PUBLISHED WORD OF MASTER BEINSA DOUNO !!!!!!!!! We will improvement the article in the near future with notability sources and better verifiability. We will make in near future special part for comparison on the topic of Esoteric Christianity. With no fear in the Endless Love! Commission for the information and public relations in Society White Brotherhood, Bulgaria Razum 21:23, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Dear Razum, good work - I agree that you put it all there. You just missed a small link that reflects the purist movement (see the posting above) and I am putting it back (above the good link to the Bulgarian resource - you see, this is still a resource in English you are contributing to). As you saw, it did not hurt to admit you edit the works of the Master - you are just the other stream, there is always a balance. I absolutely agree, however, that you sacked the Commission after the blunder they did with their linguistic analysis - a leadership course would be good. Pleasure to talk to a real person now. But about the copyright - how could I not guess that you have a copyright on the name? - imagine the Orthodox Church copyrighting the name of our Lord - the poor Presbyterians, where would they be by now? And how does it work if I may ask you? How do you enforce this? Did you know that "Copyright does not protect names, titles, slogans, or short phrases"? And also that "Copyright law does not protect domain names"? Can you, please, put on your web page an application form for opening a new Internet site? What about the moral rights of the author (hope you have heard of the concept) - is editing breaching them? Did the Master claim copyright? I doubt it! How do you accept the application tax for the name of the Master - thirty silver pieces in cash, money order, credit card? Do I send them to the Brotherly Council of the Society in Bulgaria? While it is not too late, lodge a copyright for Razum [Reason] - there is a limited offer.Quartz 11:02, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
Lubezni Quartz, ako obichash procheti si lichnata diskusionna stranica, tam imash pismo ot men po temata. Shte chakam s turpenie tvoq razumen otgovor. Razum 18:56, 30 January 2006 (UTC) "Dear Quartz, please read your personal discussion page, there is a letter from me on the subject. I will wait with patience your rational reply, Razum" Quartz 12:03, 31 January 2006 (UTC)
Dear Razum, I regret to say I won't be reading this message. I do not have time. If I read it, I will have to translate it and reply. Both take time. You said you have 40 translators - promote one of them to the Commission, s/he will do the job. Why do I need to translate it? - because everything has to be in the open, under the light of the Sun and the watchful eye of our moderators. Time is important. Everything in its own time. Here, for me, the time is finished. What was said during this discussion is enough for an objective person of an average intelligence to understand. But rejoice, I will still be around from time to time to update the link - I hope you understand the importance of this - it teaches you all patience, and tolerance, and non-"liquidation" (the Master did not know this word, but - hey! the world advances) and it keeps the Commission honest (to an extent). Dear Commission, I will miss you all. Do not thank me for the intro to the Copyright law - read the chapter associated with the moral rights as homework and create a Legal Commission to twist it a bit. Creating a Commission is easy - you log in and type l-e-g-a-l -c-o-m-m-i-s-s-i-o-n - Miracle! a New Commission has come to life. Four people make a Council etc. You have Commission(s), Council(s), Society(s), translator(s), publishing house(s), web page(s), associated web page(s) - I am sure you will manage to keep busy. And do not spread silly things around the globe, I will be checking how you are doing without me. Farewell, Quartz 11:59, 31 January 2006 (UTC)